Curse

Red · May 09, 2006, 11:21 PM // 23:21

((so sorry, the search function is down again--and I don't know what I'd search for, to be honest. "Chat"? As if I won't get 1,932,492,564.3 entries for that term))

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To Guild Wars,

In the last letter of things no one wants to read about, I got some things off my chest. It was nice to be able to get some of those things out in the open, ya know; being able to share it with you without either of us stooping to insults or shouting. Even though we haven't talked about it directly, I have faith that you read over it.

So. About some of the things we talked about. Look, I know you're working hard to change some things, and that you even share my pain in some instances. It's really encouraging to hear you come out and talk about some of these things, responding to other thoughts and all.

However, I can't say that the lines of communication are fully open yet, though. I mean, you know that people often feel upset and confused and hurt and frustrated and betrayed over a lack of communciation. We come to expect one thing and, when we get another that is suddenly different... well, it's not always pleasant. Don't get me wrong, surprises can be quite pleasant--I really like my little companion. Every time I look at him, I know that you were thinking about me. I take him with me everywhere (despite the room he takes up in my backpack!) and always display him.

At the same time, such things are fine and all... but, I don't know if one positive cancels out one negative, ya know? It'd be like if I spilled wine all over your new dress and then bought you a new set of dishes. New dishes are fine and all, but you're still down one dress. Whenever the topic comes up, I feel like it's avoided or given minimal attention. And, somtimes I feel like your excuses... well, does this appear like the coordinated strategy of squads? Really?

I think letters are fine and all, but... I think it's time we have a talk. And, I don't mean those brief interludes downtown where each we say two-three sentences about something and move on, until the conversation degenerates into dancing. ((I've always loved your conga lines. Nobody moves like you do--or runs smack into walls either! ^_^))

No, I really think we need to sit down and talk sometime. You promised this relationship was going to let us have input and such... well, I think in order for any communication to be effective, it has to be two-way. Otherwise, doesn't this only discourage the more thoughtful from speaking out? At the minimal attention given to some concerns makes me feel like I'm getting the brush off, ya know? Look, I know you're still working on things--a lot of them--but at the same time, we don't have any idea if those Things Being Worked On include some of the most glaring problems. I feel like you're focusing on the proverbial speck in the eye when there's a two-by-four staring us right in the face; an elephant in the room, so to speak. And the only reaction out of you is that you comment absentmindedly that the peanuts are missing.

Let's just sit down and talk about some of these things, eh? We're seperated by distance, but can't we have some sort of online meeting? There are some good programs that could facilitate such a meeting. We could even talk in front of other concerned parties without them actually cutting in. I know I'm really asking you to put yourself out in the open here, to be vulnerable... it's something that can be scary and, if handled poorly, can be disasterous for everyone.

But, I have faith that we can keep it civil... and I really think that it will be productive. If you're worried about how it might go, why not invite a few of our friends to join in, too? Even if your responses are that you honestly don't know about something yet, or that you are actually wrestling and having internal debates about that very issue, it would be satisfying just to know that you're looking at it. Moreover, even if you give the unpleasant answer that you "have no intentions of changing this", at least we'll know to stop worrying about it, ya know?

I'm not entirely sure I expect you to accept this offer... I mean, it's rather novel, and completely against the trend of Western Culture, which is to be as secretive as possible. "Trade Secrets" are fiercely protected against a force so large and powerful it has its own name: Corporate Espionage. But, that's not what this is about, right? This is about you making decisions about what you think will work best. Why not come out and say how you came to that decisions, or if you can be convinced to backtrack or come to a third solution?

Look, I'll understand if you're unwilling to do this now, but... can you imagine the message it would send? Mutual trust and willingness to cooperate at its utmost. I can think of others who would kill to have the level of respect you would achieve.

Just, think about it, ok?

Signed,
Daniel Highwind [MEEP] Mo/Me
~ Redly ~

Big Tony · May 09, 2006, 11:40 PM // 23:40

Wow. Yet another touching concise letter to the devs. Bravo and /signed

EternalTempest · May 09, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

I do think Anet is one of the most "in touch" with the gamming community then any other game I've seen. How receptive are other games, I throw out Final Fantasy XI for example.

It boils down to this. Anet dev's have a vision of there game that is Dev. They are the most in touch with there users that I've ever seen. They take public response seriously from what I've seen. At times, the dev will do things for the grand vision of the game that players may not like or they will change a certain aspect in which a players only play that one aspect so for them Anet has "messed" with there entire world.

To be honest too much "openness" can kill them. Gaile tip toes around topics because it's her job, but as a relations manager goes, (and alex), they been far more open then any other game I've seen.

If say we have a open thread of list of questions from the fans, then have the mods compile the list and do the interview. It cuts down the extreme I hate you and the extreme I love you people.
Say they start leaking the not yet done c3, we will have people screaming about OMG this sucks, and blah blah (and there not done or x choice is not even there final choic). I've also noticed that via interview (web , radio) they have given a ton of information that most players don't read. It also shows the mindset of the developers.

I would think if an effort of fan driven here is a list of questions, please respond would be more of a good choice and they do respond).

Eviance · May 09, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redly

an elephant in the room, so to speak. And the only reaction out of you is that you comment absentmindedly that the peanuts are missing.

I am sooo sorry love... I got to that part, nearly fell out of my chair with laughter and missed the whole rest of it! But what I saw before the peanuts was beautiful. I am so glad I married someone as articulate as you -_-

But your idea for mIRC may not be possible... could you imagine the crash for overload >_>
Granted I think many of the fanboys/gals who just want to offer the devs gold and trinkets such as Dr. Pepper could easily be weeded out this way tho, as I doubt many of them would stop their gameplay to boot up mIRC... Hmm ...

and yes Dragons are nice and such and thank you for taking that screen shot like I asked -_- But I wish you had screen shotted local chat of all the leavers as well. *thumbs up* on another MEEPERIFIC post!

/Lady Eviance [MEEP]
Ranger

Echis · May 09, 2006, 11:41 PM // 23:41

/signed

I remember back in the betas we actually had feedback. Many of the good suggestions were read over, we knew that, we saw the presense of the devs, both in game and on the forums, and at least a few of those suggestions were implemented. Then Prophesies came out, and it was changed from what we were all expecting, and dev feedback started slowing. still, the effort was made.

what ever happened to that weekly letter that gaile started? the one where each week, questions were collected from one of the popular guild wars forums, answered, and posted on the guild wars site every friday? True, most of the questions were not what the community wanted answered (whether it was actually common knowledge that was being confirmed, or repeat questions from previous weeks), but at least it was an attempt.

That didnt last long, did it? but they are bringing in something new now. state of the game letters, except... they are written by players, and dont answer what we want to know. maybe we'll luck out and the devs will read one that clearly states the problems. doubt they'd post it though, they dont seem to care about the other things.

and dev sightings have dropped dramatically as well, and when they do show, they almost never answer the questions asked, or always even stay on topic

Bring back the communication ANet, theres far more to gain than to lose by it.

Kylie Minon · May 10, 2006, 12:24 AM // 00:24

A thoughtful idea, and it's up aNet to decide if it goes live.

However, I agree with EternalTempest, too much "openness" can kill them... and us.

Why? Because they are experts on balancing the game, and we are experts on asking the opposite

Esprit · May 10, 2006, 12:28 AM // 00:28

/signed

I posted something like this, in so many less elegant words, ealier today.

I don't necessarily want a live chat, or whatever, but simply a few answers to some more serious questions we've all been asking.

Maybe we should ask this in all CAPS and STARS at Gaile's next online gathering. >_>

Carinae · May 10, 2006, 12:32 AM // 00:32

/signed

I love this game, and yes, I think that many of the issues with this game could be completely resolved if we could have a sit-down talk with some of the Devs.

Anet does listen to their customers better than any other company, and they are damn good at communicating back via Gaile or Alex or Frog. Few, if any other company does that at all, let alone as well.

But a handful of "changes" over the past year have caused some genuine discord. Just a piece of advice: If Anet had made an effort to inform the community that a certain major change was coming and asked the community for their thoughts then things would have gone much smoother.

Currently, when major changes occur, they are completely out of the blue with no warning, and no dialog whatsoever, before or after.

#1) Big changes + No communication = Traumatized players, especially with PvE players.

#2) NEVER EVER introduce new content at the same time as a Nerf! You're trying to sell the new content, so don't club us over the head and wonder why were not eating it up.

While my guild was out in Cantha for the Day of the Tengu, I was in Kryta reworking my MM builds. The builds I ran just wouldn't work at all anymore, so before I enjoyed Factions, I had to deal with getting blindsided. I'm sure everyone can agree that that was not the intended result of Factions.

More communication, definately signed.

Kylie Minon · May 10, 2006, 01:19 AM // 01:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Esprit

...Maybe we should ask this in all CAPS and STARS at Gaile's next online gathering...

Interesting idea...

sinisters chaos · May 10, 2006, 01:27 AM // 01:27

/signed... yet another good post, i would love to see this 1 on 1 conv.

Eviance · May 10, 2006, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylie Minon

A thoughtful idea, and it's up aNet to decide if it goes live.

However, I agree with EternalTempest, too much "openness" can kill them... and us.

Why? Because they are experts on balancing the game, and we are experts on asking the opposite

In a way truer words were never spoken - But I have seen some excellent ideas that wouldn't hurt anything - I have seen others that while are good, have their flaws....

In essence we are all kinda upset that we were not told more clearly of the changes that would occur... Change is good but like someone else has said, a club upside the head is bad -_- I feel like I have been clubbed to death ;_;

(Without further spamming of this thread by me - I agree with that koneko, but no communication can do the same thing... We are not going to have all the answers and neither or they, our suggestions range from utter crap to OMG WHY DIDN'T I THINK OF THAT! I know that they listen to some of the ideas but I am also aware that sometimes they miss the bigger picture... That's what bugs me.... I mean in Redly's last thread I was glad that Gaile had been by and read it, and she responded, but not in mention to the OP, but to me for calling her out on the Tengu thing... Maybe like other people who read his post she just didn't get it... And yet more and more often I ponder if someone clued her in to my exact post and she never really read the thread.... I cannot say for sure as she didn't really have a whole lot to say to me as far as the PM went... Maybe we will never know *shrugs*)

koneko · May 10, 2006, 03:43 AM // 03:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kylie Minon

However, I agree with EternalTempest, too much "openness" can kill them... and us.

"The perils of designing software by community process"

I find it somehow relevant for some reason, especially toward the end: "The wisdom of crowds only works in situations where there are clear right and wrong answers. If you try to apply it to a design problem, where there are many entirely different right answers, then you end up with a wrong answer. Always."

/signed

Dr Strangelove · May 10, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

This is, quite possibly, the most articulate post I have read on this site, or any site for that matter. I agree with you 100% on the mess 12v12 has turned into and their relucatance to change it. I can't help but think they're already aware o the issues and may be stalling/relucatant to make more changes.

Anyway, I'd just like to say that this post (and your others is appears too) is the golden egg in the pile of dolyak dung that comprises most game suggestions/complaints.

Red · May 10, 2006, 04:22 AM // 04:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by EternalTempest

I do think Anet is one of the most "in touch" with the gamming community then any other game I've seen. How receptive are other games, I throw out Final Fantasy XI for example.

--many other good points--

I can generally agree with you, ETempest. It is because ANet appears to want to be the best in this way, that I am willing to put this suggestion forward to them. I do so, because I think there is a chance--however miniscule--that they will listen.

Aeon221 · May 10, 2006, 04:43 AM // 04:43

You people must frequent crappy sites... oh wait.

I prefer Anets current model. Why? Because, unlike the majority of people on fan sites, they know their asses from their elbows. Stupid toilet paper stuck to my arm...

Besides, its not like the community has any clear idea what the hell it wants. There are as many locked gate lovers as there are locked gate haters.

Also, why should Anet care what a small subset of their customer base has to say? Most of the players out there don't frequent these mind dump threads...

<vitriol spewed>

Omega X · May 10, 2006, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by koneko

"The perils of designing software by community process"

I find it somehow relevant for some reason, especially toward the end: "The wisdom of crowds only works in situations where there are clear right and wrong answers. If you try to apply it to a design problem, where there are many entirely different right answers, then you end up with a wrong answer. Always."

/signed

HE wasn't asking them to become an Open Source group. HE only wants a communication channel that doesn't involve Gaile's PR babble.

According to Gaile, they read the forums all the time. But as for interactions, something or someone either in Anet or NC Soft changed that dramatically.

Not to mention that there is a big ass Index of really good ideas that I bet that they have hardly touched.

Big_L · May 10, 2006, 05:09 AM // 05:09

What is this? After sifting through the rambling post all I've pulled from it is that you want some kind of personal meeting with the game's developers. So this little meeting will be you and maybe some of your friends, and you justify the benefits by claiming to speak for the entire gw community accurately. Am I getting this right?

Do you really think that Anet doesn't have developers and/or personal contacts with players in the game? You think Gaile Gray coming to Lions Arch is the only contact game developers have with the gaming community? I dont see how this will improve anything whatsoever. In fact, I'd rather see developers actually working on the game than being forced into online meetings with random players.

Beyond a complaint, you included next to nothing on a way to actually implement this. In fact, I'm partially guessing at the suggestion itself hiddin somewhere in the post, making this one step above a rant. I'm assuming you are speaking in terms of yourself when you talk about a meeting with the devs and not suggesting that all players have the same opportunity. This would, of course, be rediculous and a horrible waste of time. Even if its a hand picked group of players, as opposed to you personally, then how are these players picked? Anyway, using complete sentences doesn't justify the lack of actual content in the post.

Not to be a dick, but I really dont see a point to what you suggest, and while your writing style can be entertaining, its not what I come here for.

koneko · May 10, 2006, 05:13 AM // 05:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Omega X

HE wasn't asking them to become an Open Source group. HE only wants a communication channel that doesn't involve Gaile's PR babble.

According to Gaile, they read the forums all the time. But as for interactions, something or someone either in Anet or NC Soft changed that dramatically.

Not to mention that there is a big ass Index of really good ideas that I bet that they have hardly touched.

Did you read the latter part of my post? You missed the point that I was trying (and failed) to make. I wasn't saying anything about going open source - I was responding to ET's comment that it's dangerous to listen to your userbase and to eventually give in to their demands (observer mode, purchasable character slots, +character slots with pre-order access, etc.)

Relevance of the quote: there likely is a design issue (12v12, elite missions). There is a crowd (GWG, GWO, GH, Photics). There have been many suggestions put out as to how to fix the design issues. Backing down from what was originally intended, giving in to demands, whatever - implementing one of the many suggestions will ultimately tick off another segment of your userbase. Wouldn't it be better, then, to keep things the way that the developers intended?

Or something.

Eviance · May 10, 2006, 05:21 AM // 05:21

koneko I feel like your avatar >_>

>_< I don't see how it's so easy for people to miss the big picture... Well I guess I do - and there was a time when it was obvious that they cared and granted they probably still do care - we just aren't hearing it as loudly as we once did ;_;

Hockster · May 10, 2006, 05:24 AM // 05:24

This is all fine and nice, but one of the most efective ways to get your points heard is to either get friendly with an alpha tester or two, or become one. They have much more direct lines of communication. And have much greater chance of being listened to over some random posts in fansite forums.